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Lucid Dream Exchange (LDE):\u00a0 DREAMSPEAK<\/p>\nLucid Dream Exchange (LDE):\u00a0 DREAMSPEAK<\/p>\n
Part One, Two and Three”, The Lucid\u00a0 Dream Exchange, Numbers 29, 30, and 31, 2003 – 2004.<\/p>\n
AN INTERVIEW WITH BEVERLY D’URSO: A LUCID DREAMER (Also appears in Electric Dreams)<\/p>\n
(c) Beverly D’Urso 2003<\/p>\n
Questions by Robert Waggoner<\/p>\n
Beverly D’Urso (formerly Beverly Kedzierski, and also Bev Heart)
\nis an incredible lucid dreamer. She served as Stephen LaBerge’s
\nmain lucid dream research subject in the early years of his
\nresearch work, and helped provide key insights into lucid
\ndreaming. Interviewed by magazines, national and local television,
\nand other media, Beverly has promoted a greater understanding of
\nlucid dreaming and “lucid living.” The LDE is pleased to provide a
\nmulti-issue interview of this fascinating lucid dreamer.<\/p>\n
ROBERT: Beverly, thanks for doing an interview with the LDE. Since
\nyou play a pivotal part in the development of lucid dreaming, tell
\nus how your interest in dreaming began.<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: I grew up in a small suburb of Chicago, the only child of
\na lower- middle class family. I was very close to my parents. When
\nI was about five years old, my grandfather came to live with us.
\nIt was around this time that I remember having a series of
\nrecurring nightmares.<\/p>\n
I imagined gruesome witches living in the back of my dark and
\nscary closet. In my dreams, I’d be quietly playing or lying in
\nbed. Without notice, the witches would sneak out and come after
\nme. I’d scream and run through the house, making it to the back
\nporch and sometimes down the back stairs, but never any further.
\nI’d fall on the cement at the bottom of the stairs, spread eagle
\non my back, and just as they were about to devour me, I’d wake up.
\nIn an icy sweat, breathing fast, I’d be terrified of going to
\nsleep again. For a few weeks, the witches would leave me alone,
\nbut, when I least expected it, they’d be back. After years of this
\nsame recurring dream, I’d find myself pleading, as I lie on the
\ncement with the witches hovering over me, “Please, spare me
\ntonight. You can have me in tomorrow’s night’s dream!” At that
\npoint, they’d stop their attack and I’d wake up. However, the
\ndream was still very upsetting, and I always hated going to sleep.
\nI would lie in bed and tell myself that the witches only came in
\nmy dreams, while I was safe in bed. I tried to get myself to
\nremember this the next time they appeared.<\/p>\n
ROBERT: So, recurring nightmares led you to realize that witches
\nonly came in dreams. When did you consciously realize this in the
\ndream state and become lucid?<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: One hot, sticky summer night, when I was seven, I was
\nespecially afraid of going to sleep. I was sure the witches would
\nappear in my dreams that night. My mom was sleeping on the living
\nroom couch, which she often did when it was so hot. The front door
\nwas opened to create a breeze. So, still being awake about two in
\nthe morning, I grabbed an old, dark pink, American Indian blanket.
\nI put the blanket on the floor next to the couch to be close to my
\nmom, and I fell asleep.<\/p>\n
Soon, I found myself back in my bedroom, unknowingly in a dream,
\nand noticed the closet door creaking open. I knew at once it was
\nthe witches, and I began to run for my life. I barely made it
\nthrough the kitchen. As I raced across the porch and down the
\nstairs, I tripped as usual and immediately those horrifying
\nwitches caught up to me. The instant before I started to plead
\nwith them, the thought flashed through my mind, “If I ask them to
\ntake me in tomorrow night’s dream, then this must be a dream!”
\nInstantly, my fear dissolved. I looked the witches straight in the
\neye and said, “What do you want?” They gave me a disgusting look,
\nbut I knew I was safe in a dream, and I continued, “Take me now.
\nLet’s get this over with!” I watched with amazement, as they
\nquickly disappeared into the night. I woke up on the floor next to
\nmy mom feeling elated. I knew they were gone. I never had the
\nwitch nightmare in this form again! I would later have new
\nepisodes with the witches in my dreams and discover similar witch
\nscenarios in my waking life.<\/p>\n
ROBERT: Did that initial lucid dream realization change your
\noutlook on dreaming? How so?<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: My dreams were really fun after that night. Remembering
\nthe feeling of facing the witches, I learned to recognize when I
\nwas asleep and dreaming. Safe in the dream, I would do things I’d
\nnever do when awake! Being a very obedient student during the
\ndaytime, I would dream of being in class jumping wildly and
\ncarefree all over the tops of the school desks. Whatever I
\ndesired, was possible. Whatever I thought, would occur. I felt
\necstatic. I could face other fears, heal or nurture myself
\nemotionally, resolve conflicts or blocks, have adventures, help
\nothers, or just have fun. I could fly, visit places, people, or
\ntime periods, and generally “do the impossible!”<\/p>\n
I made up ways to wake myself up from dreams, such as staring at
\nbright streetlights in the dream, whenever I wanted to end a
\ndream. Oftentimes, I would lay in bed imagining myself doing
\nbackward summersaults and float right into my dream, without ever
\nlosing consciousness, as I fell asleep. I figured out how to stay
\nin a dream, if I felt I was waking up, how to change the dream
\nscene, and even how to repeat the same dream!<\/p>\n
ROBERT: What other things did you learn to do in your early lucid
\ndreaming?<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: I learned to fly in my dreams, as well. Usually, I would
\nbe lucid. I started out flying like a little bird, having to flap
\nmy wings to stay up. This could take much effort. As I grew up, I
\ndiscovered that I could fly like superman, soaring effortlessly
\nthrough the air, arms first. At some point, I must have hit some
\ntelephone wires or some other barrier because I fell. I soon
\nrealized that because it was my dream, I could fly right through
\nphysical objects of any kind. I had fun flying through walls and
\neven deep into the earth. As I matured in my lucid dreaming
\nskills, I could eliminate flying by merely imagining that where I
\nwanted to go was right behind me. This soon got boring, and I went
\nback to flying for the simple pleasure it brought me. However,
\nlately, I have been doing what I call “surrender flying.'” I lean
\nback, and I let an invisible force pull me upwards from my heart
\narea. This is a very ecstatic sensation, and it often leads me to
\nplaces of great peace and power, which remain with me even after I
\nwake up.<\/p>\n
ROBERT: My earliest lucid awareness came when I was 10 or 11 years
\nold, and saw dinosaurs in the public library in my dream and
\nannounced that this must be a dream. Besides the witches, what
\nelse helped you realize that you were dreaming?<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: Often, in dreams, I would often find myself in front of
\nmy childhood home. At times, there were changes to the structure
\nof the house. Other times the house changed in impossible ways.
\nSometimes, people other than my parents were living there. In the
\ndream, I’d often get confused and scared. However, the more I
\nthought about it while awake, the more I realized that I only saw
\nthe house this way when I was in a dream. So, I told myself, the
\nnext time I’m in front of my childhood home, I will check for
\nthese changes. If I see them, I will know that I am dreaming. From
\nthen on, seeing my childhood home was often a clue for me to
\nbecome lucid in my dreams. Once I became lucid in this manner, I
\ncould pursue any other goals that I might have for that night.<\/p>\n
ROBERT: What I find amazing is that you were so young. Did your
\nlucid dreaming make you feel unusual, or did you feel special?<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: My lucid dreaming experiences continued throughout my
\nteenage years. However, I never knew the term “lucid dreaming.” I
\nthought that everyone dreamed this way every night. I guess I
\nliked the experiences, so I thought about them at night, in bed,
\nbefore I went to sleep. I suspected that I was dreaming whenever I
\nwould have problems in a dream, for example, when all my teeth
\nwould start to fall out, when my contacts would grow or multiply,
\nor when I would find myself on shooting elevators or on bridges
\nthat were too steep to drive on.<\/p>\n
I often dreamed of my close friend from high school, named Denise,
\nShe died in a car accident, when I was nineteen. At first, I’d see
\nher, and we would continue as we would have when she was still
\nalive. One time, I remembered that she had died. It scared me so
\nmuch that I woke up. Afterwards, I learned to stay in the dream
\nand talk to her. It took me time to get accustomed to hearing her
\nvoice, but I was finally able to ask her questions, and,
\neventually, listen to her answers. I felt very relieved to connect
\nwith her this way. It helped me
\ndeal more easily with my father in my dreams after he died, in
\n1992. By then, I was an expert!<\/p>\n
ROBERT: What other types of lucid dream experiences surprised you
\nback then?<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: I would sometimes end a dream, think I woke up, yet find
\nmyself in another dream. These are called “false awakenings.”
\nSometimes, I would ‘wake up’ ten or twenty times in a row, but
\nusually the time it took me to realize that I was still dreaming
\nshortened exponentially. For example, I would realize I was still
\ndreaming when I left the house for the day in a dream. The next
\ntime, in a similar dream, I would recognize I was still dreaming
\nearlier, when I was in the shower, and so on. Finally, I would
\nstill be in bed, waking up, when I’d realize I was still in a
\ndream. I have gotten better at recognizing false awakenings
\nthrough the years.<\/p>\n
ROBERT: So how did it happen that you met Stephen LaBerge?<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: In the late 1970s, I moved to California to finish my
\ngraduate work in computer science at Stanford University. Soon
\nafter I arrived, I went to see a dream expert to find out if I
\ncould learn to dream less often. I thought that waking up too
\noften with dreams was disturbing my sleep. The expert asked me to
\ndescribe some of my common dreams. When I did, she told me that my
\ndreams were called “lucid dreams.” She said lucid dreaming was a
\nvaluable skill that people were trying to learn. I was very
\nsurprised! I only saw her once, but many years later she showed up
\nat a presentation I was giving on my lucid dreaming experiences. I
\ndecided that if I were going to remember so many dreams anyway, at
\nleast many of them were lucid!<\/p>\n
At the time, I was finishing a master’s project with a Stanford
\nCognitive Psychology professor. I told one of his other students
\nthat I was a lucid dreamer. He said that I had to meet his friend
\nStephen LaBerge, who was doing his dissertation on this exact
\nsubject.<\/p>\n
After Stephen and I were introduced at an initial meeting, we
\ndiscovered that we both did similar things in our lucid dreams. He
\nasked me to try some things at home and report back to him. When
\nhe asked me to try spinning in a dream and see what happened, I
\nalready knew the answer. My somersault dreams were like spinning
\nbackwards. I used them to get into new dream scenes. Steven also
\nfound that spinning in his dreams created new scenes, as well. He
\nattributed it to something in the inner ear that affected a
\ncertain part of the brain.<\/p>\n
ROBERT: Obviously you both shared similar interests in lucid
\nawareness. Did that lead to being a research subject?<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: Stephen invited me to participate in some experiments at
\nthe Stanford Sleep Laboratory. I ended up sleeping at the lab and
\ndoing experiments about once a month for many years. I also did
\nmany experiments for publicity, such as television or magazine
\nspecials. I succeeded every time I was in the lab, except one time
\nearly on when the technical equipment failed.<\/p>\n
Before I came along, Stephen had used himself as the subject to
\nshow that one could be definitely in the sleeping state and signal
\nthe beginning of a predetermined task from a dream. He wondered
\nhow what we dream in our mind affects our physical body. For
\nexample, if we dream that we breathe slowly, does our physical
\nbreathing slow down? Although we can not, for example, cause our
\nhearts to stop beating in a dream, in general, the activity of our
\ndream bodies can be recognized as happening in our physical
\nbodies, as well.<\/p>\n
ROBERT: So how did the research begin with you as the subject?<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: In the lab, I would signal from a dream, and my signals
\nwould be picked up by EEG machines in the lab via electrodes on my
\nbody. During this process, my brain waves, and other body
\nfunctions, were also being monitored. They showed that I was
\nunequivocally in the sleep state, particularly REM sleep, while I
\nwas signaling.<\/p>\n
The first time Stephen signaled in the lab, he squeezed his arm
\nmuscles in Morse code for his initials. When I tried squeezing my
\narm muscles in an experiment, the signal was not strong enough to
\nregister, so we decided on using a new signal. We used eye
\nmovements, because eye movement is not as inhibited as other body
\nmovements during sleep. I would move my dream eyes back and forth
\nin the dream and the left-right movements, from my physical eyes
\nin bed, connected to electrodes, would appear in the lab on the
\npolygraph machine. I used a double left-right left-right movement
\nto show that I knew I was dreaming. I would use a similar movement
\nto signal that I was about to begin a task in a dream. I
\neventually decided to use to series of these, or four left- right
\nsignals, to say that I was waking up, or about to wake myself up.<\/p>\n
ROBERT: What other lucid dream research did you do in those early
\nyears?<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: After I demonstrated that I could have lucid dreams at
\nwill, every time I was in the laboratory, I did many other
\nexperiments that used the signals. After signaling that I knew I
\nwas dreaming and in a dream, I would signal that I was about to
\nbegin a predetermined task. One time, we decided I would sing a
\nsong, which should have activated a certain area of my brain,
\nwhich was also being monitored by electrodes. It did. Another
\ntime, I did a more mathematical task of counting from one to ten,
\nwhich should have activated a different area of my brain, just as
\nit would while awake. The experiments showed that the same parts
\nof the brain were activated while dreaming a task, as when doing
\nit while awake.<\/p>\n
ROBERT: Did you ever have problems as a lucid dreamer on these
\nresearch nights?<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: One time, I was in the lab doing an experiment for
\n*Smithsonian Magazine*. My task was to get lucid, and then clap my
\ndream hands to determine if an electrode on my physical ear would
\nregister the dream sound. In the dream, I signaled lucidity, but I
\ncouldn’t clap my hands. A buoyancy compensatory had unexpectedly
\nexpanded around me, and I couldn’t get both hands to meet. I had
\nrecently learned to scuba dive. A buoyancy compensatory is a
\ndevice used for floating that expands around the center of the
\nbody. The part that the reporters didn’t realize was that just as
\nI was going to sleep, Stephen had whispered to me that maybe I
\ncould solve the ancient Zen koan of “the sound of one hand
\nclapping.” I believe that the reason my subconscious couldn’t get
\nmy hands to clap was because then I wouldn’t be making the sound
\nof “one” hand clapping.<\/p>\n
During another lab experiment, my eye movements were being
\nmonitored, as usual. In a lucid dream, before I moved my eyes, I
\nexplained what I was going to do to the dream character that
\nrepresented my friend Tim. He said, “Oh, you mean you move your
\neyes back and forth like this?” He then moved his eyes in this
\nmanner. After I signaled and woke up, we noticed that there were
\ntwo eye signals recorded. Tim’s eyes moving in the dream must have
\naffected my physical eyes. This made me wonder if all dream
\ncharacters are really aspects of the dreamer as well.<\/p>\n
ROBERT: It seems that the lucid dream research focused mostly on
\nphysiological correlations between dream experience and waking
\nexperience, rather than, say, the psychological meaning of dream
\ncharacters, etc. Is that the case?<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: We did many more experiments in the lab through the
\nyears. I tried estimating time in a dream and while wake. The
\nestimates turned out to be very similar. We believed that time
\nsometimes seems different in dreams because dreams often work the
\nway movies do. When scenes end in movies, often new activity from
\na later period begins immediately. In other experiments, I
\nfollowed patterns with my dream eyes. For example, in a dream, I
\nwould watch my finger make an infinity sign about two feet wide in
\nfront of my face, and we’d compare it to my physical eyes
\nfollowing this same pattern while awake. Oddly enough, I would
\noften do these experiments after working all day on my Ph.D., and
\nperforming all evening with my professional belly dance troupe.
\nTalk about working 24 hours a day!<\/p>\n
In another ground-breaking experiment, I was in the Stanford Sleep
\nLab, hooked up to electrodes and vaginal probes. My goal was to
\nhave sex in a dream and experience an orgasm. I dreamed that I
\nflew across Stanford campus and saw a group of tourists walking
\ndown below. I swooped down and tapped one dream guy, wearing a
\nblue suit, on the shoulder. He responded right there on the
\nwalkway. We make love, and I signaled the onset of sex, the
\norgasm, and when I was about to wake up. We later published this
\nexperiment in the *Journal of Psychophysiology* as the first
\nrecorded female orgasm in a dream.<\/p>\n
ROBERT: Did dream lab work affect your normal lucid dreaming?<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: During this time period, while at home in my bedroom, I
\nfound myself in a dream. Dream scientists asked me to go to sleep
\nin a chair. They wanted to study me. By falling asleep in a dream
\nchair, I actually woke up, and I wrote down the dream. I went back
\nto sleep, and I found myself in the same dream chair with the
\ndream scientists. I asked them what they observed while they saw
\nme sleeping, while I had actually woke up and recorded the dream.
\nThey said I was almost paralyzed, except that my eyes were moving
\nquickly back and forth, left and right. Was my waking life a dream
\nto these dream scientists? I began to use the process of falling
\nasleep in a dream as a way to wake up.
\nROBERT: So what about your lucid dreams in the lab? Were they
\naffected by the laboratory setting?
\nBEVERLY: In the laboratory, I learned to wait until early morning
\nhours to even try to have a lucid dream. After eight hours of
\nsleep, it would be easier for me to become lucid. We found this to
\nbe true for most people. For example, I would say, “I will do the
\nexperiment at 7:30 a.m.” I picked this time because it was before
\nthe office personnel would come in and begin to make noises.<\/p>\n
Picking a time, also made it easier for the media people. Instead
\nof watching my brain waves all night, they could rest, and know
\nexactly when to watch me perform live. I normally woke up after
\nmost REM periods, about every hour and a half. When I would wake
\nup between six and seven a.m., I would then focus on my lucid
\ndreaming task. This process is how we came up with the technique
\ncalled “MILD,” or Mnemonic induction of lucid dreams.<\/p>\n
In my laboratory dreams, I would often find myself in a lab
\nsetting, similar to the one in which I was sleeping. In my dreams,
\nI would often joke with the dream characters who represented the
\nlab technicians or the media people. Sometimes, I would fly over
\ntheir heads for fun. I would always remember to signal at the
\npoint when I knew I was dreaming, and at the beginning and ending
\nof any of my tasks.<\/p>\n
Robert: Was it odd having news media attention about lucid
\ndreaming?”<\/p>\n
Beverly: Once, I was asked to do a lucid dreaming experiment at
\nthe lab for the television show 20\/20. While being hooked up to
\nelectrodes used to verify my sleeping brain waves, I sat next to
\nHugh Downs, the host of the show. I had known him from television
\nsince I was a child. He wanted to try his luck at becoming lucid
\nin his dreams that night. I became lucid easily that night,
\nfinding myself in a bed that looked like the one in the lab where
\nI had fallen asleep. I got the idea to head towards Oakland, and
\nmaybe make it to a scheduled Grateful Dead concert. I got half way
\nthere, when I remembered that I was being filmed for a national
\ntelevision show. One of my goals was to bring Hugh Downs flying. I
\nturned around midair and quickly flew back to the Stanford Sleep
\nLab. I looked for what I thought would be the wall of Hugh’s room.
\nI nudged him on the side and said, “Hugh, wake up! I have come to
\ntake you flying.” He seemed very sleepy, so I took his hand, and I
\ngently pulled him out of bed. We got to the coliseum just as the
\nGrateful Dead were playing on stage. Because we were like ghosts,
\nit was easy to merely float right over the band, in fact, directly
\nover the lead guitar player, Jerry Garcia’s, head. We had the best
\nlocation in the place, and the music sounded especially clear and
\nvibrant. The next morning, I asked Hugh if he remembered any
\ndreams. Unfortunately, he didn’t, but he seemed very pleased when
\nI told him mine. The reporters interviewed me, but as far as I
\nknow the segment was never shown.<\/p>\n
ROBERT: Sexual desires seem fairly common in my lucid dreams and
\nin most other lucid dreamers’. What this the case in your
\nexperience as well?<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: In my lucid dreams, I have had sex with dream characters
\nwho represent men, women, old people, young people, strangers,
\nrelatives, as well as people of various races and classes. I have
\nbeen the woman, the man, half woman\/half man, both split from
\nwaist, and with both a penis and a vagina. I have been a man with
\na man, a woman with a woman, an old man with young girls, with
\ngroups and alone. I have made love physically with myself in all
\ncombinations. I can barely think of some sexual situation that I
\nhave not experienced. These dreams are all very enjoyable and
\neveryone is always totally accepting.<\/p>\n
I would sometimes give myself challenges while not in the lab, as
\nwell. In one very powerful lucid dream, I felt very sure of myself
\nand decided to have sex with the next dream person who came down
\nthe street. I did so, right in the middle of the road, with no
\ninhibitions. I gave myself a suggestion to remain lucid afterwards
\nand it worked. However, I now found myself alone, in front of a
\ncampfire. I took this as another challenge and stepped right into
\nthe center of the roaring fire. I was having fun and decided to
\ntry eating the flames. Interestingly enough, they tasted salty.
\nNext, I appeared with nothing physical around me, so I decided
\nthat I would fly up and merge with the sun. I sped upwards like
\nsuperman, accelerating rapidly until, about half way there, I
\nheard a great sound. It was very intense, and yet blissful. I felt
\nextremely lucid for the next several days in both my waking and
\nsleeping states.<\/p>\n
ROBERT: Any final thoughts about experiments or experiences in the
\nlab with Stephen LaBerge?<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: During one lucid dreaming experiment at the lab, Stephen
\nLaBerge asked me to try healing my stiff neck in a dream by
\nrubbing my hands and directing the energy to my neck. I tried this
\nin a dream, and I found sparks coming from my hands. The sparks
\nset my hair on fire, and I spend the dream trying to put the fire
\nout. Even I wasn’t always completely lucid!<\/p>\n
In another lab experiment for a television special, I had to sing
\nthe song, “Row, row, row your boat…. life is but a dream.” The
\nweek that the show was to air, they used a clip of me singing this
\nsong with electrodes all over my face, wearing my blue robe, for a
\ncommercial. It was shown several times a day that week. A few
\ntimes, when I turned on the television, the commercial was playing
\nand I saw myself saying, “Life is but a dream!” It was a very
\nstrange experience indeed! I decided it must be some kind of
\nmessage from the universe, and I better pay attention. I was
\nformulating the ideas that would eventually become what I now
\ncall, “lucid living!”<\/p>\n
ROBERT: Beverly, because you have so many great lucid dream
\nexperiences, we plan to continue this interview for the next LDE –
\nand maybe even the one after that! Would you care to leave us with
\none of your favorite lucid dreams from this period?<\/p>\n
BEVERLY: This next dream serves as a good description of how our
\nthoughts can create reality. I was in a lucid dream and I met a
\nlovely fairy teacher who told me that she would give me the gift
\nof seeing my thoughts manifest instantly in front of me. I found
\nmyself driving on a road around a large lake. I thought how nice
\nit would be to be in a boat on the water. Instantly, I was sitting
\nin a boat looking up at the road I had just been on. I was amazed.
\nI must have imagined being in town next. In front of me on a dusty
\nroad, I saw a mysterious man walking towards me. He put his hand
\nin his pocket. I thought, “What if he pulls a knife on me?” Sure
\nenough, I noticed the blade. I was terrified, but just as quickly
\nI tried to picture him merely scratching his leg. I was relieved
\nwhen he did. Still, I was afraid that I would think more negative
\nthoughts, and I wanted this all to stop. Yet, I didn’t know how to
\ndo so. Finally, I decided to think of my bedroom and myself
\nasleep. Sure enough, I woke up, and I felt that I had learned a
\ngreat deal about how our mental states can affect our experiences.<\/p>\n
Robert: So Beverly, you have been lucid dreaming regularly since
\nyou were a child, and helped Stephen LaBerge scientifically prove
\nthe existence of lucid dreaming as his main research subject.\u00a0 But
\ndid your time in lucid dreaming affect your other dreams, or were
\nthey everyday, normal dreams?<\/p>\n
Beverly: In 1982, after becoming extremely proficient in lucid
\ndreaming,I spontaneously began having precognitive dreams. These
\nare dreams of things that happen later in the waking state. For
\nme, these dreams usually had great detail, were very emotional,
\nand the waking scenario would occur within a few days of the
\ndream. However, my precognitive dreams usually have not been
\nlucid. I was sure that they were not due merely to coincidence. I
\neven described the events, in detail, to others, who were later
\npresent during the waking scenario. My previous view of the
\nphysical world as being “solid,” and having precise rules, had
\nturned upside down!<\/p>\n
Robert: How did you respond to having your world view altered by
\nyour lucid and precognitive dreaming?<\/p>\n
Beverly: These experiences caused me to explore other psychic
\nphenomenon. I began reading books, such as Jane Robert’s “Seth”
\nwork. I needed to make sense of what was happening to me. Again, I
\nthought of life being a dream. It would explain how such things
\nlike precognitive dreams could occur.
\nMaybe, I needed to become more lucid in life in order to really
\nsee it as a dream. My dreams often seemed as real as physical
\nreality, sometimes more so.\u00a0 The more I thought of the
\nimplications of life being a dream, the more it made sense. We
\ncould all be dream characters in a dream we call life. Was there a
\nDreamer dreaming us all? However, during this time, I was still a
\nscientist trying to finish my Ph.D. I did not want to be
\ndistracted by these ideas so much, that I never finished my
\ndegree. I decided to put them off for awhile.<\/p>\n
Robert: That’s understandable.\u00a0 So how did the dissertation go?
\nBeverly: In my waking state, I was having trouble writing my
\ndoctoral dissertation.\u00a0 I decided to try writing it in my dreams
\nfirst. In one dream, I found myself lying in bed. The desk in the
\nroom was in the wrong place, so I realized that I was dreaming. I
\nheaded for my computer, to start writing.\u00a0 I found that I could
\nnot move. I was paralyzed. I told myself, “This is my dream, and I
\ncan do what I want!” I slowly made it to the desk. I looked down,
\nand I saw that the chair seat was an opening for “the pit to
\nhell.”\u00a0 Flames swept up, and it sounded and smelled awful!\u00a0 I was,
\nhowever, determined to succeed. Holding my breath, I sat down,
\nready to be sucked into the pit.\u00a0 Instead, I woke up, and within a
\nvery short time, I finished writing my dissertation in the area of
\nartificial intelligence.<\/p>\n
Robert: That’s a great story.\u00a0 I recall being at an Association
\nfor theStudy of Dreams’ presentation, where one of the speakers
\nadmitted that his realistic dream of fighting the devil occurred
\nwhen he was undergoing the oral and written defense of his
\ndoctoral dissertation!\u00a0 So what happened after you finished your
\ndissertation?<\/p>\n
Beverly: I finished my Ph.D. in 1983 and my career really took
\noff!\u00a0 I was very involved in starting up businesses and traveling
\naround the world.\u00a0 In 1987, I took a short break from this
\ncomputer science work to help Stephen LaBerge form the Lucidity
\nInstitute.<\/p>\n
By this time, we had been experimenting for awhile with lucid
\ndreaming induction techniques to help others more easily become
\nlucid in their dreams.\u00a0 At first, we tried to send clues to the
\ndream world by using smells and sounds.\u00a0 In one experiment, I
\ntape-recorded my own voice saying, “I am dreaming, now!” A
\ntechnician would play the tape when I was in REM sleep, making it
\ngradually louder. However, as soon as the sound became loud enough
\nfor me to hear in the dream, it would wake me up.\u00a0 This was when
\nwe decided to send light to the dream, instead. Light could be
\nmore easily incorporated into the dream and used as a clue to
\ninduce a lucid dream, for someone trained to look for the
\nflashinglight in their dream.<\/p>\n
Robert: So, forgiving my pun, you and Stephen saw the light.\u00a0 How
\ndid that work?<\/p>\n
Beverly: We developed a mask that people could wear to sleep at
\nnight, which could recognize REM eye movements.\u00a0 If a person was
\nin REM sleep, it would then flash a light, which would get
\nincorporated into the dream. If users were trained to look for the
\nlight, they could learn to question whether or not the light was
\nfrom the mask, and, more importantly, question whether or not they
\nwere dreaming. The light might appear as flashing stoplights in
\nstreet scenes, or as lightning flashing in the sky.\u00a0 Many versions
\nof this dream mask eventually got developed, including the Dream
\nLight and the Nova Dreamer.<\/p>\n
I created the first business plan to market this lucidity
\ninduction device.\u00a0 I also helped Stephen give lucid dreaming
\nworkshops.\u00a0 In 1990, I decided to lead my own personal groups and
\nworkshops on lucid dreaming, which soon became lucid
\ndreaming\/lucid living.<\/p>\n
Robert: Interesting.\u00a0 When you started out on your own leading
\nlucid dream workshops, did you feel like you had your own unique
\nvision of lucid dreaming?<\/p>\n
Beverly: Sharing a little of my introduction to lucid dreaming
\nwill clarify how I look at things. When we become “lucid” in our
\nsleeping dreams, we become aware that we dream while we dream.
\nSome people never remember their dreams, some remember them after
\nthey have been awake for a while, and some remember them just
\nafter or before they awaken. Lucid dreamers remember they dream
\nwhile the dream takes place. They do not necessarily analyze the
\ndream, or look for symbols, but directly and consciously
\nexperience the dream, shortening the time it takes to realize they
\ndream.<\/p>\n
To me, lucid dreaming does not mean merely “visualizing”,
\n“daydreaming”, “clear” dreaming, or even “controlled” dreaming,
\nnecessarily. Also, I personally believe in levels of lucidity, as
\na spectrum. I would say I am partially lucid, if I just remember
\nto question if I am dreaming.\u00a0 I’d call myself definitely lucid,
\nif I know I am dreaming for sure. I consider myself very lucid, if
\nI can control or change things in the dream, not that I always do.
\nFinally, when I am most lucid, I often do not experience a body,
\nbut I have a very powerful, spiritual-like experience.<\/p>\n
In a lucid dream, I feel free to do whatever I please, have fun,
\nexperiment, solve problems, accomplish goals, and go wherever my
\nimagination takes me, taking care to balance spontaneity and
\ncontrol. I have learned that sometimes it is better to surrender
\nto the dream. Other times, it helps to take control, change
\nthings, or carry out goals.<\/p>\n
I have remembered, on average, half a dozen dreams per night, for
\nmost of my life. I’d say that between 2 and 20 dreams per week
\nwere lucid, to various degrees.\u00a0 So, I’d say a good estimate of
\nhow many lucid dreams I have had would be 20,000. Unfortunately, I
\nam not a very good recorder of dreams, nor I have organized my
\ndream reports very well. I have, however, kept track of the ones I
\nconsider most valuable.<\/p>\n
Robert: A thousand here, a thousand there- at that point, who’s
\ncounting?\u00a0 No, that’s incredible.\u00a0 So how have you used your lucid
\ndreaming knowledge and skills in your presentations and workshops?<\/p>\n
Beverly: Here are a few examples of how I worked with my students
\nin my groups. I would often ask my students to choose a goal for a
\nlucid dream.\u00a0 One student told me he’d like to bike around the
\nworld.\u00a0 I told him to start simple. He first had to become lucid,
\nremember the task, stay in the dream, and find a bike to ride.\u00a0 He
\naccomplished this in several months.\u00a0 Finally, one day he reported
\nthat he had ridden his bike through Russia in his dreams. Shortly
\nafter this, he told me that he could no longer attend my group. He
\nwas quitting his job, selling his house, and taking five years off
\nto bike around the world!<\/p>\n
Another time, a friend I had just met asked me to dream for him.
\nI dreamed I was in a theater and was watching a movie that he is
\nin. Later, I told him the story, and I discovered that I had
\ndreamed his life, including things he never told anyone.<\/p>\n
Once, I told a friend’s eight year old nephew about lucid
\ndreaming. I helped him practice lucid dream induction techniques
\nwhile awake.\u00a0 I asked him what he’d like to do in a dream.\u00a0 He
\nsaid he’d like to meet a president of the United States.\u00a0 In a few
\ndays, he called me to tell me that he had a lucid dream. He didn’t
\nfind Washington or Lincoln, but he did meet up with the artist,
\nLeonardo da Vinci. He said that it was okay, because da Vinci was
\nfamous too. I asked him what happened. He told me that he asked da
\nVinci if da Vinci knew that he was in the encyclopedia.\u00a0 Then he
\nshowed da Vinci some of his own artwork.\u00a0 The boy was very happy
\nwith his lucid dream, and very pleased with himself.<\/p>\n
Robert: Did listening to your students’ lucid experiences and
\nchallenges inspire you to try out new things in your own lucid
\ndreams?<\/p>\n
Beverly: Yes, sometimes I would decide ahead of time to meet up
\nwith people in my dreams.\u00a0 I have succeeded in dreaming of the
\npeople, but none have ever told me that they had the same dream.
\nThat would be called a “mutual dream.”\u00a0 It is easier for me to
\nattempt a mutual dream when I am lucid, because I can stop and
\nremember my goal. I have an easier time making it happen, as well.<\/p>\n
I often try to accomplish tasks for my students so we can discuss
\nissues that arise, and also to see if we could have a mutual
\ndream. Here is a dream I had when trying to have a mutual dream
\nwith a student named Sharon.<\/p>\n
I found myself in front of my childhood home and noticed that it
\nlooked strange. The door wasn’t in the right place and the house
\nwas situated improperly on the block. This happens often in my
\ndreams, so at that moment I became lucid. I knew I was dreaming
\nand I remembered that I had a goal for this dream. However, I saw
\na neighbor, who I knew had died, and I first stopped to talk to
\nher.\u00a0 In previous dreams, I would see her and say, “You are dead!”
\nand try to get on with my goal. She would get upset and say, “I’m
\nhere now, so talk to me!” Unless I did, I learned that I would
\nhave trouble completing my goal.<\/p>\n
My goal for the dream was to meet Sharon in the Bahamas.
\nImmediately, I began to fly like superman heading south, because I
\nwas in the Chicago area at the time.\u00a0 It was dark, and I had a
\nlong way to go. By this time in my lucid dreaming experience, I
\ncould fly through electric wires that were in my way, but now I
\nhad another idea. I could make myself miniature, go into the wire
\nas electricity itself, and get there very quickly. So I got tiny
\nand popped into the nearest wire, which appeared like a large
\ntunnel once I was inside. I was whisked very fast, shooting
\nheadfirst down the line, until I abruptly popped out the end of
\nthe wire. As my normal self again, I was somewhere at the southern
\ntip of the United States, at the ocean’s edge, where the electric
\nlines stopped.<\/p>\n
I realized I didn’t have much time left, and I decided to travel
\nthe rest of the way underwater, doing a kind of superman
\nswim\/flying. I soon got distracted by the lovely underwater life
\nand the joy of moving so fast, while breathing the water. I
\nfinally made it to a lovely beach in the Bahamas. I asked a guy,
\nwho was serving drinks to the sunbathers, if there was a
\nrestaurant nearby. This was the place where Sharon and I agreed we
\nwould try to meet. He pointed down the beach, and I walked to a
\nresort type building, and then through a long hall. I was about to
\nask the host if Sharon was waiting for me, when I saw “her”
\nsitting on a bench. She didn’t look like she was expecting me, so
\nI said, “Don’t you remember that you said you wanted to dream of
\ngoing to the Bahamas, and I said I’d meet you in a lucid dream of
\nmy own? Well, this is it. We are dreaming now.”<\/p>\n
I was thinking that this dream girl was “Sharon,” a dream-body who
\nwas connected to Sharon, who was probably asleep in bed in
\nMountain View, California. If I had seen her as a projection of
\nmyself, I may have decided not to talk to her, believing that she
\nwasn’t connected in any way to the physical Sharon. In this case,
\nI said to her, “Well, I’ll tell you a secret, and we’ll see if you
\nremember it when I see you in our group next week.” I whispered a
\nsecret in her ear, and soon afterwards I woke up.<\/p>\n
Robert: So what happened after this lucid dream?\u00a0 Did she call you
\nin waking reality or have any memory of the dream?<\/p>\n
Beverly: When Sharon came to my lucid dreaming group that Sunday
\nnight, she had forgotten the goal and had never dreamed of me, nor
\nthe Bahamas. I am still waiting, as I am with others, for her to
\nreport a related dream or for her to tell me the secret!<\/p>\n
Around this time, I had a dream where I was riding my bike down
\nthe street of my childhood home. I became lucid and started flying
\ninto the air. I was flying over the nearby river, when a cartoon
\nfigure of a dolphin floated in front of me.\u00a0 The dolphin danced
\naround, and then asked me if I’d like to go on an adventure. After
\nputting out its fin for me to hold onto, it proceeded to pull me
\ndown into the ocean, which was now where the river had previously
\nbeen. Something similar had happened to me, with a whale shark, in
\nthe waking state, while I was scuba diving. The dolphin and I
\ntraveled deeper and deeper, faster and faster. I felt both
\necstatic and somewhat dizzy, almost as though the experience were
\ntoo intense.\u00a0 I woke up, however, feeling fantastic; very
\npeaceful, yet energized.<\/p>\n
Robert: That’s great.\u00a0 Did you have any more experiences with
\ndolphins in dreams or waking life?<\/p>\n
Beverly: A few years later, I noticed an ad from a man who took
\npeople on dolphin expeditions. I contacted him, and we eventually
\ndid a joint lucid dreaming\/dolphin swimming workshop on a sailboat
\nin the Bahamas.\u00a0 On this trip, while I was in the crystal clear
\nwater of the open sea, one of the dolphins rubbed up to me.
\nUnderwater, its color and shape looked remarkably similar to the
\ndolphin of my dreams.<\/p>\n
Robert: So what other lucid dreaming stories come to mind?<\/p>\n
Beverly: When I was thirty-seven years old, I became very anxious
\nto find a mate, get married, and have children. During the
\nChristmas holidays, while visiting my parents, I had the following
\ndream.\u00a0 I met up with myself at the age of twenty-one, who was sad
\nbecause she was about to leave her college boyfriend, so she could
\ntravel and have a career.\u00a0 I told my twenty-one year old self that
\nI had done those things. I said that I now wanted a husband and
\nchildren.\u00a0 She introduced me to my alternative self, who was also
\n37, and who had married my college boyfriend. They had three
\nchildren, and now she wanted to divorce him. My twenty-one year
\nold self and I decided that everything was as it should be.
\nFinally, I woke up. As I am writing down the dream, I hear an
\ninner voice, as if from a future self, who says, “Everything is
\nperfect as it is!” I finally believed it. I trusted that I would
\nfind my perfect mate, when the time was right. I didn’t need to
\nworry about it. I decided that if life is a dream, then my dreams
\nwould come true. I imagined that anything was possible, even after
\nI read a Newsweek article, which said that a woman was more likely
\nto die from terrorists, than to get married after forty! I did,
\nhowever, prepare my life for my future family by buying a house,
\ngetting a dog, which was supposed to be good with kids, and taking
\na job as a college teacher, which I thought would work well with
\nbeing a mom. I met my husband two years after this dream.<\/p>\n
Robert: It’s interesting in that story how your conversation in
\nthe lucid dream leads to a strong conviction that “Everything is
\nperfect as it is!” and following that revelation, you move ahead
\nand buy a house and prepare for your future family. That is one
\nthing that many casual lucid dreamers fail to see – how a lucid
\ndream experience can be as powerful or more powerful than many
\nsignificant waking experiences. Have you ever used waking reality
\nto practice becoming lucid?<\/p>\n
Beverly: In my groups, we would practice becoming lucid while
\nawake. I would give my students exercises, such as, questioning if
\nthey are dreaming, several times a day. For example, I asked them
\nto check if they were dreaming every time they washed their hands
\nduring the day. I jokingly said, “If your hand falls off, you are
\nmost definitely in a dream!”\u00a0 Around this time, I was also helping
\nmy mother with her dreams of my dad after he died, in 1992.\u00a0 She
\nwas having recurring dreams of my dad, who would appear next to
\nher bed.\u00a0 She would fear that he was here to take her to heaven.
\nI told my mom, “If you see dad, remember that he died, and
\ntherefore you must be dreaming!”\u00a0 A few days after I gave my group
\nthe hand exercise, she was able to get lucid in her recurring
\ndream.\u00a0 My mother remembered that my father had died, and she knew
\nshe was dreaming. She was even able to take his hand, and his hand
\nfell off.She did not know about the exercise when she reported the
\ndream to me the next morning.<\/p>\n
Robert: Beautiful.\u00a0 Did trying to become lucid while awake lead to
\nany revelations?<\/p>\n
Beverly: Yes, I saw how powerful it could be to become lucid in
\nwaking life.
\nI met my husband, Chris, six months after my father died. It was
\nthe most lucid day I have ever experienced.\u00a0 We were at a party,
\nand I saw him from across the room. I knew that he was my future.
\nIt was love at first sight.
\nI was able to stay in the moment, without fear, and with total
\ntrust.\u00a0 I believed in magic, while been totally accepting whatever
\nhappened.\u00a0 I was able to listen to him, as if he were truly part
\nof myself.<\/p>\n
I was very sorry, however, that he never got to meet my father,
\nwhen I had the next dream. I was in my childhood home, where my
\nmom still lived, and I saw my dad on the couch. I remembered that
\nhe died, and that I must be dreaming.\u00a0 I went to sit next to him
\nand told him that I loved him. I asked him why, lately, he hadn’t
\nappeared as often in my dreams.\u00a0 He said that he was helping me
\nfrom under the bridge. I’m not sure what he meant, but I was happy
\nto hear his voice and feel him close. Next, I embraced him, and
\nafter we hugged, I looked back into his eyes. He had turned into
\nmy husband, whom I so much wanted my dad to meet.\u00a0 I soon awakened
\nand felt as though they had finally met, at some level.<\/p>\n
Chris and I were married in less than a year after we met. We knew
\nthat we wanted to have a child.\u00a0 After much medical help to get
\npregnant, I decided to work on the issue in my dreams.<\/p>\n
I decided to dream of our future baby. I would ask questions of
\nthe baby in the dream such as, “When are you coming?” I would also
\ntry to determine what year it was in the dream.\u00a0 Sometimes the
\nbaby would have messages.<\/p>\n
Robert: It’s fascinating how you seem to work on “the future” to
\nsome degree in your lucid dreams.\u00a0 Maybe it is not the future, so
\nmuch as your hopes for the future.\u00a0 Did you have many other lucid
\ndreams of trying to influence the future?<\/p>\n
Beverly: One time, in waking reality, I was back in my childhood
\nhome, alone for the first time. My mom was ill, and in the
\nhospital. My Dad had died over two years ago. I was afraid, crying
\nin my bed. I fell asleep. Spontaneously, without trying to
\ninfluence the future, I had a type of nurturing dream involving
\nthe future. I became lucid in my dream, when I noticed that the
\nbaby, from my baby picture on the wall, was coming out of the
\npicture.\u00a0 I walked over to myself as a baby, just in time to take
\nthe baby in my arms. As I held her, I saw my face in hers, and I
\npulled her to my chest. I could see her lips sucking at my breast,
\nand I felt very fulfilled. I slowly awakened, and I felt my own
\nlips moving, as well.\u00a0 I was deeply nurtured. A year later I
\nnursed my own child in that very bed!<\/p>\n
Before my son, Adrian, was born, however, I also had some
\ninteractions with my childhood witches. My witch dreams went
\nthrough many transformations during my life. In 1960, I faced up
\nto the scary witches from my recurring nightmares. In the 1970’s,
\nI looked for the witches of my childhood in a dream, and they
\nappeared as harmless, little old ladies. In the 1980’s, I noticed
\nthat the witch drama appeared in my waking life as well. In 1994,
\ndoctors gave me terrible odds against having a child. So, I looked
\nfor the witches in a lucid dream, thinking of them as my “creative
\npower,” and I brought them into my uterus. Within a year, I got
\npregnant with my son, Adrian.<\/p>\n
Adrian was born during the 1995 Association for the Study of
\nDreams Conference (ASD95). This was three years after I presented
\nthe paper at ASD92 called, “What I Learned from Lucid Dreaming is
\nLucid Living.” I brought him to the ASD96 conference. He also came
\nto the ASD97 conference, where I gave a workshop called, “Living
\nLife as a Lucid Dream.” Adrian turned two on the day of the dream
\nball.<\/p>\n
Robert: In a way, it seems that your lucid dreaming skills allowed
\nyou to use that beautiful symbol of witches as creative power for
\nyour own ends.\u00a0 In a sense, you claimed the power of the shadow.<\/p>\n
Robert: How did your lucid dreaming develop after the birth of
\nyour son?<\/p>\n
Beverly: My mom was feeling better during the years after my son
\nAdrian was born. She visited us often, and we would go to Chicago
\nto see her, as well. Adrian and she became best friends. In the
\nyear 2000, I had the biggest challenge of my life. Adrian had
\nstarted kindergarten. I talked to my mom on the phone almost every
\nday. She was still living in my childhood home, near Chicago. Six
\ndays before her planned trip to visit us in California for the
\nholidays, she drove a friend to lunch. That night she told her
\nneighbor that she was feeling good. I had a dream that night,
\nwhich I shared with Chris and Adrian during breakfast. In the
\ndream, I went to help a woman I loved, who was hanging on her
\nhouse by her fingertips. Soon, I was hanging by my fingertips, as
\nwell. Chris told us that he dreamed we were going on a trip, and I
\nwas quickly getting ready.<\/p>\n
That morning, in Chicago, my mother didn’t answer her door, so her
\nneighbor came in. She found my mom on the floor, next to her bed,
\nunconscious. The doctors called me to say that my mom had had a
\nsudden, massive stroke, and all four quadrants of her brain were
\ninstantly destroyed. She would only exist in a vegetative state. I
\nneeded to take her off life-support, as she requested in her
\nliving will. Chris, Adrian, and I flew to Chicago immediately.
\nNeedless to say, the next twelve days before Christmas were a very
\ndifficult and emotional time.<\/p>\n
Robert: I remember the year before my father passed away, I had a
\nnumber of lucid and apparently precognitive dreams giving me
\ninformation – but on one level, nothing can prepare you for it.
\nHow did you deal with this?<\/p>\n
Beverly: First, I needed to give the okay to remove her
\nventilator. Everyone thought that she would die at this point. The
\nnight before this was scheduled, I had a dream that my husband and
\nI were at the edge of the beach. A tidal wave was coming. In the
\ndistance, we saw angels flying toward us in a “V” formation. We
\nthought the tidal wave would demolish us, but instead, the angels
\nflew right over our heads and protected us. This dream told me
\nthat I would be able to survive this ordeal. Coincidentally, the
\nventilator was removed at the exact time that her plane to
\nCalifornia was scheduled to take off. However, she still lived,
\nand we had more decisions to make. Do we give her an IV? Is
\nglucose considered food? We did not want to prolong her life in
\nthis state. One time, I stayed up all night with her in the
\nhospital. When I finally did go to bed, I had a dream of her. She
\nsaid to me, “Get some sleep, I’ll take care of the body.”<\/p>\n
Finally, it was Christmas Eve. My mom and I had been together
\nalmost every year of my life at midnight Mass on Christmas Eve, in
\nmy hometown church. Christmas Eve was her favorite day of the
\nyear. She always said, “If we are ever lost, let’s meet on this
\nnight at our church, in our regular seats”. My mother died right
\nat midnight, officially Christmas Day morning.<\/p>\n
After her funeral, I stayed alone in my childhood home for another
\nfew weeks, to go through fifty years of stuff that had been
\ncollected. I made the decision to rent out the house.<\/p>\n
Robert: That must have been an extremely difficult and emotional
\ntime. Did dreaming help, or was that painful too?<\/p>\n
Beverly: My life, as well as my dreams, was quite a struggle after
\nthis. In my dreams, I hated to see my mom, only to remember that
\nshe had died, which would happen when I was lucid. This was too
\nmuch to handle. I didn’t want to be reminded, once again, in the
\nsleep state, that my mother had died. It was enough to deal with
\nit while awake. I decided not to have lucid dreams for a while. I
\nhad a strong intent and a physical need for this to happen. I did
\nhave regular, non-lucid dreams of her.<\/p>\n
At each stage of my grief, these non-lucid dreams of my mother
\nevolved. First, I dreamed of her and I doing our usual activities.
\nI could have enjoyed these dreams, if I didn’t have to feel such
\nshock when I woke up and remembered that she had indeed died.
\nNext, I started dreaming that my mother did not die after all.
\nThen, I had dreams in which she had died, but mysteriously came
\nback to life. I didn’t question this in the dreams.<\/p>\n
I had many dreams of my childhood home during this time, as well.
\nI did not get lucid, even with great clues, such as when house was
\nchanged in impossible ways. Things were very bizarre. Other people
\nwere living there, as was now the case with the renters, in
\nreality. I felt angry and confused.<\/p>\n
I went to grief therapy for over a year. Using peer counseling and
\ngroup sharing, I demonstrated more and more acceptance of my
\nmother’s death. Little by little, I took the knowledge of her
\ndeath into my dreams and began to explain it to other dream
\ncharacters. Finally, after explaining my mother’s death to my
\n“father” in a dream, I was able to interact with my “mother,” and
\nactually discuss her death. At this point, I had a significant
\ndegree of lucidity, and my dreams felt more comfortable, and
\nsometimes enlightening.<\/p>\n
Robert: I recall that a month after my father’s death, I became
\nlucid and insisted on seeing my father. Amazingly, the dream
\ncharacters told me that “no, it is too soon”. So instead, I had a
\nfascinating conversation with them. After that my dream characters
\nin lucid dreams were quite supportive and caring, and I did go on
\nto have lucid conversations with my deceased father. How did your
\nlucid dreaming progress?<\/p>\n
Beverly: In the spring of the year 2002, a year and a half after
\nmy mother’s death, the lease was up on my childhood home. I needed
\nto sell the house. But could I? Spontaneously, I dreamed that I
\nfound the witches in my childhood home. I surrendered to them, and
\nthey pulled me under the closet door, where they came from. I
\nmerged with the witches. The biggest fears of my childhood were
\nresolved. In my dreams, my fear was to go with the witches. In
\nlife, my fear was my mother’s death. At last, I could sell the
\nhouse easily, and I felt that I had healed quite a bit. In the
\nlast dream I had of my childhood home, I flew out the picture
\nwindow like a powerful witch.<\/p>\n
After this, I would bring my mother into my dreams. We would
\nembrace and I’d say, “I love you and I miss you, mom.” Sometimes,
\nin my dreams, I am still convincing her that she really died. This
\ntells me that some level of grief still exists. One time, in a
\ndream, I said to my mom, “You are safe now, you are in heaven!” I
\nheard the message for myself, as I see my mother as part of my
\nhigher self, the Dreamer of life. I presented my grief dreams in a
\npaper at ASD2003 called, “Witches, the House, and Grief:
\nDeveloping and Avoiding Lucid Dreaming.” I was now in a place to
\nget on with discussing my work on “lucid living!”<\/p>\n
Robert: Yes, please tell us about lucid living.<\/p>\n
Beverly: Before I discuss lucid living, I need to define a few
\nmore terms. When discussing a non-lucid dream while awake, I refer
\nto my dream self as “me” or “I,” (as in: “I was flying”) and I
\nrefer to my physical self (or part of my physical self’s “mind”)
\nas the one who creates the dream, whom I call the dreamer. By
\ndefinition then, I can not call my dream self the dreamer,
\nalthough I recognize that some people do. Note, that I do not feel
\nmy physical self’s brain contains my physical self’s mind. I also
\nassume that a “mind” is not physical. In a lucid dream, although I
\nalso refer to my dream self as “I”, I can sense my connection to
\nthe dreamer, and I feel like a “larger, expanded self.” Sometimes
\nI even feel connected to what I’ll later describe as the “Dreamer
\nof life.”<\/p>\n
Robert: So in a regular dream, you consider the dream creator as
\napart from the dream actor. But in a lucid dream, you are aware
\nthat the dream creator is also a portion of the dream actor, and
\nin that sense, the awareness is expanded. Right?<\/p>\n
Beverly: Yes, but I’d clarify that in a regular, non-lucid dream,
\nfrom the “perspective” of the dream actor, the dream creator seems
\nto be separate or actually never even considered.<\/p>\n
Although I usually say that my dream exists in my physical self’s
\nmind, it usually feels as though my dream self, whom you have
\ncalled the dream actor, and my physical self exist in separate
\ndimensions, and when I “wake up”, I change dimensions (or
\nperspectives.) Most importantly, when I become lucid, I feel that
\nmy thoughts definitely do not come from my dream self’s mind or
\nbrain, but from my physical self’s mind. For example, my dream
\nself will often have a different life, history, motivations, and
\ngoals than my physical self.<\/p>\n
So, to summarize, in a lucid dream I usually experience myself in
\na 3-dimensional, vivid world that I believe my physical self’s
\nmind has created. Therefore, I feel safe because I feel I exist in
\nmy physical self’s mind and not in physical reality (where my
\nphysical body resides). Because I see the dream as being created
\nby my physical self’s mind, I also know that anything I (the
\ndreamer) can imagine can happen. By believing that everyone and
\neverything around me in the dream, including my dream self and
\nother dream characters, exists in my physical self’s mind, I
\nexperience everyone as “one”, or “made of the same substance” and
\nall “parts of a whole.”<\/p>\n
Robert: Okay, I think I am following you. How does this relate to
\nlucid living?<\/p>\n
Beverly: When I view my waking life as a dream, a dream in which I
\nknow I am dreaming (to various degrees, of course), I call this
\nlucid living. Waking life may feel ‘real’ and unlike a ‘dream,’
\nmerely because I lack lucidity, just as non-lucid dreams can feel
\nlike physical reality, until I become lucid. I try to view life as
\nan “actual dream” and not to merely use lucid living as a therapy
\nor philosophy. The assumptions that come from viewing life as a
\ndream can be very powerful and can expand what we feel is possible
\nin life.<\/p>\n
If I look at waking life as a dream, then I can also use lucid
\ndreaming techniques that I learned from my sleeping dream
\nexperiences, to more easily become lucid in my waking life. When
\nlucid in waking life, I can become more “free”, have fun,
\naccomplish goals, feel connected, and maybe even experience magic
\nin my waking life, as I have in my sleeping lucid dreams.<\/p>\n
Robert: So you try to transpose the lessons and experiences of
\nachieving results in lucid dreaming, to the world of waking
\nreality. In so doing, you have used this knowledge and perception
\nto support your experience of lucid living.<\/p>\n
Beverly: In lucid living, I think of our physical selves as dream
\nselves in a dream called “waking life.” I also imagine a Dreamer
\nwho is dreaming our lives. Note the capital “D” to distinguish
\nfrom the use of dreamer as part of a physical self’s mind.
\nSometimes, I view this Dreamer as some “Being” asleep in a bed in
\nanother dimension. Other times, I view the Dreamer as a
\nnonphysical “God” or an all-encompassing, collective “Mind.” I
\nguess there could be levels of Dreamers as well.<\/p>\n
Either way, when I am lucid in waking life, I sense a connection
\nto this Dreamer, whom I sometimes call my Higher-Self. I begin to
\nrespond to things from the perspective of this Dreamer. As in a
\nlucid sleeping dream, I feel “safe,” I believe in “limitless
\npossibilities”, and I see everyone in waking life as “one” or
\n“parts of a whole.”<\/p>\n
Robert: So how do you suggest one go about achieving this state,
\nand living waking life lucidly?<\/p>\n
Beverly: Throughout my life, I have developed techniques for
\nbecoming lucid in my sleeping dreams, and I have found there are
\nmany uses for lucid dreaming. Some of these uses include:
\npsychological development, trying new behaviors, healing, and
\nmore. I’ve found that all of my techniques, below, can apply,
\nwhether we find ourselves asleep or awake, i.e., in sleeping
\ndreams or in waking life.<\/p>\n
To become lucid in my sleeping dreams, or in my waking life, I
\noften look for unusual or impossible situations. In my sleeping
\ndreams, I will often see someone who has died and that will clue
\nme that I am dreaming. At times, in my waking life, especially
\nduring tense situations, I look for the unusual and wonder if I am
\ndreaming. Without knowing for sure, I begin to find more evidence,
\nmy reactions turn powerful, and I began to relax.
\nRobert: In other words, you use odd actions or events as a notice
\nto step back from the event and become more broadly aware, just as
\nwe all do in lucid dreams. This is opposed to regular dreams or
\nregular waking life, where, unaware, we let ourselves get more
\ndrawn into the odd or fearful event. In lucid living, you act like
\nyour lucid dreaming self, right?<\/p>\n
Beverly: Yes, sometimes I “act as if,” or pretend I am dreaming. I
\noften ask myself, or others, if I am dreaming. I also make sure to
\n“test” if I am dreaming. An example of a test is when I try to
\nfloat. If I do float, I know I am dreaming for sure, and I become
\nlucid. I have not floated in my waking life, but I do not rule it
\nout as an impossibility. I have become more open, for example, to
\nstories of yogis levitating.<\/p>\n
Another valuable technique is to review recurring dreams and
\nnightmares and practice imagining myself having new reactions. I
\nhave learned to modify my reaction to a monster in a recurring
\nsleep-state nightmare. I have also changed my response to friends
\nat key times in waking life. The key involves viewing the monster
\nas part of my physical self’s mind, in the case of the nightmare.
\nIn the waking life situation, I view my friends as part of my
\nHigher-Self, or the Dreamer of life.<\/p>\n
When trying to become lucid in my sleeping dreams, and in my
\nwaking life, I find it valuable to get myself motivated. For
\nexample, I can teach or take a class on lucid dreaming or lucid
\nliving. It helps to record, share, and visualize my sleeping
\ndreams and my waking life situations. I especially like to do
\nexercises to help me become lucid in both sleeping dreams, and in
\nwaking life.<\/p>\n
Robert: Could you tell us about a possible exercise to become more
\nlucid in either state?<\/p>\n
Beverly: Here is an example of an exercise. I stop and I ask
\nmyself if I could be dreaming several times a day, perhaps every
\ntime I wash my hands, or climb down steps, or do some activity
\nthat doesn’t happen too often or too seldom. What I practice while
\nawake, I eventually find myself doing in my sleeping dreams, so
\nthis technique helps me become lucid both in my waking and
\nsleeping states.<\/p>\n
One of the most valuable tools I have used for motivating me to
\nbecome lucid in sleeping dreams involves setting goals. Sometimes,
\nI become lucid and decide not to change the direction of my dream,
\nin order to carry out a goal. In this case, I go with the flow of
\nthe dream. However, when I do have an interesting goal, I get
\nmotivated to become and remain lucid. In my lucid dreaming
\nclasses, I suggest that my students start with a simple goal to
\naccomplish in their lucid dream. I ask them to decide the first
\nsteps that they can accomplish from wherever they might find
\nthemselves, and I tell them to decide this ahead of time, while
\nawake. I find that a goal of “becoming lucid” does not work as
\nwell as a goal of doing something fun in the limitless world of
\ndreams. This applies to waking life as well.<\/p>\n
As a sleeping lucid dreamer, I learned to remain in my dreams, to
\nwake up out of them, to change them, to go back into them, to
\nbecome more lucid, and to accomplish intricate goals within them.
\nI would like to do this in my waking state as well.<\/p>\n
Robert: Well that sounds like something anyone could try. But what
\nabout lucid living?<\/p>\n
Beverly: There are aspects of lucid dreaming that apply to lucid
\nliving and can help us live our lives more fully. In waking life,
\nwe may identify our physical bodies with our selves. The same
\nthought occurs in non-lucid dreams, where we identify our dream
\nbodies with our selves. We may believe that if our dream body
\ndies, we die. We feel this way because we are not aware of our
\nphysical self in non-lucid dreams. We continue to feel this way
\nuntil we wake up out of the dream and discover that the dream
\nhappened in our “mind” and not in “reality”. We think, after the
\nfact that we could have responded differently had we realized that
\nwe’d dreamed.<\/p>\n
Of course, even in sleeping lucid dreams, we might not, for
\nexample, jump off a cliff, if we didn’t feel positive that we were
\ndreaming, and that we could, for example, merely fly away. We
\nmight just continue to dream that we had a very bad accident.<\/p>\n
In general, after waking up from dreams, we don’t think that our
\ndream bodies have ‘died,’ but understand that we have merely
\nswitched focus. Will we someday wake up out of our lives and
\nmerely change focus as well?<\/p>\n
Our goal, then, in lucid living, involves learning to respond
\ndifferently, at times, and with less fear in our waking lives. We
\ndo not need to wait until ‘after the fact’ to realize that we
\ncould have responded more fully and with more freedom in our
\nlives. Instead, we can ‘wake up within our waking life!’<\/p>\n
Robert: It’s interesting in lucid dreaming, and perhaps this goes
\nfor lucid living as well, that a broader awareness leads to the
\nrealization of a new type of relationship with the so-called
\nreality around you. In turn, the aware person begins to act in
\nthat so-called reality in a new way. In lucid living, are one’s
\nactions different?<\/p>\n
Beverly: Yes. For example, lucid dreamers have experienced the
\namazing feeling of having an exciting goal for a dream and making
\nit happen. We can experience the joy of making things happen more
\noften in our waking state, by learning to become lucid in waking
\nlife and set upon accomplishing tasks with a new outlook that
\nanything is possible. At the very least, we can probably gain an
\nunderstanding of how we may block our selves and try again,
\nknowing we have endless possibilities.<\/p>\n
An example, from an early stage of my sleeping lucid dream
\ndevelopment, illustrates this point. In my dream, I could not fly
\nto my destination because I kept hitting telephone poles. When I
\ndecided that “this is my dream,” I was able to fly right through
\nthe poles. I also realized that it was my physical self’s mind
\nthat created the telephone poles to begin with!<\/p>\n
When we increase our lucidity in waking life, we can also feel a
\nsense of oneness with everyone and everything. We can live as if
\nour Higher-Self does indeed “create our own reality.” We can
\nexperience an altered state of consciousness, and at the extreme,
\nwe can have what one might call “mystical experiences.”<\/p>\n
Robert: Okay, but even in some of our lucid dreams, we become
\nfrustrated – we can’t fly very well, or the dream characters won’t
\ndo what we want them to do. What about those cases?<\/p>\n
Beverly: In lucid dreams, I try to remember that all the dream
\ncharacters make up parts of my dreamer’s mind. Similarly, the next
\ntime we find ourselves in an undesirable situation in our waking
\nlife, we can take action with the belief that other people make up
\nparts of our Higher-Self, the Dreamer.<\/p>\n
This can help us to stop and listen to what others have to say,
\nnot because we have been taught to, but because we want to
\nunderstand the Dreamer. Like puppets who act as though they are
\nseparate and disconnected, we often feel disconnected. Using the
\npuppet analogy, we can begin to identify more with the puppeteer,
\nrealizing that it is the puppeteer who makes everything happen.<\/p>\n
Robert: Well, I’m not too happy with the word, “puppet”, but I do
\nget the point that the creator of the dream\/waking reality is also
\ninvolved, consciously or not, with the creations in that
\ndream\/waking reality. So there is a connection there, if we are
\nlucid enough to wake up to it. Do you have examples of lucid
\nliving that would demonstrate your point?<\/p>\n
Beverly: Remember, the true puppet has no more or less powers than
\nthe puppeteer. In essence they are “one and the same!”<\/p>\n
Here are a few examples of how I have become lucid in my waking
\nlife. Once, during an argument with my cousin in the waking state,
\nI suddenly stopped to think, “If I look at this as a dream right
\nnow, then my cousin actually expresses a part of the Dreamer (my
\nHigher-Self.) At that exact moment, I acted from the perspective
\nof the Dreamer, and she actually started to explain how our points
\nof view seemed related instead of opposed.<\/p>\n
Another time, a friend, in the waking state, was yelling and
\nhovering over me like the witches from my sleeping dreams. I
\nnoticed the similarities to the witch nightmares, and I saw this
\nas a pattern in my life. The situation actually happened in the
\nsame physical place in my house with different people. I faced up
\nto my friend like I faced up to the witches, without fear, but
\nwith acceptance, and my friend suddenly stopped, walked away, and
\nthe pattern in my life ended, in the same way my witch nightmares
\nceased.<\/p>\n
My marriage, my child, my degrees, my career, and my amazing
\nadventures, too numerous to mention, are all examples of how lucid
\nliving has assisted me in having such an incredible and diverse
\nlife.
\nRobert: For many of us longtime lucid dreamers, we have similar
\nstories. But do you think these ideas can be accepted by someone
\nnew to lucid dreaming?<\/p>\n
Beverly: In my experience as a lucid dreaming teacher, my students
\nfound it easier to become lucid in their sleeping dreams, once
\nthey understood the concept and believed it possible. When they
\nbegan to question whether or not they dreamed and looked for
\nevidence, they often noticed something unusual and became lucid.
\nOnce they had experienced results, they no longer had to believe,
\nthey knew they could become lucid. We can do the same with lucid
\nliving.<\/p>\n
Perhaps people would accept psychic phenomena, or synchronicities
\nin waking life, more readily if they viewed waking life as a
\ndream. Viewing life as a dream, gave me a foundation for
\nunderstanding how I could possibly have had my first amazing,
\nprecognitive dreams. Psychic phenomena could also serve as clues
\nfor becoming lucid in waking life.<\/p>\n
Robert: You know, I have often thought that in life, we simply
\nlive our assumptions. In lucid dreams, you begin to see that idea
\nin an immediate sense. When you change your expectations in a
\nlucid dream, the dream changes to accommodate the changes. It
\nseems the same thing happens in waking life.
\nBeverly: Yes, I believe lucid living can have a profound effect on
\nall our lives. Of course, as in our sleeping dreams, we can easily
\ngo on automatic and lose lucidity. However, the more we practice
\nlucid dreaming skills, whether when asleep or during our waking
\nlife, the more likely we will become lucid at all times. By
\npracticing lucid living, we strive to live the most illuminating,
\nclear, and conscious waking life as possible.<\/p>\n
We can also obtain a greater understanding of what spiritual
\npractices, great writers, movies, fairy tales, and songs have been
\ntelling us for ages:<\/p>\n
Hindu Maya: Waking life is an illusion; Buddhist: Philosophy of
\nConnectedness; Christianity: Resurrection after death; The Course
\nof Miracles: Live the Happy Dream; The Wizard of Oz: There’s no
\nplace like home; Shakespeare: All the world’s a stage; Star Trek:
\nHolodeck;
\nThe Matrix: The world has been pulled over your eyes to blind you
\nto the truth.<\/p>\n
The list goes on and on. My favorite is: Row, Row, Row, your boat,
\ngently down the stream, merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life
\nis but a dream.<\/p>\n
Robert: Beverly, thanks for your sage advice and insights. Life is
\nbut a dream.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
Beverly D’Urso (formerly Beverly Kedzierski, and also Bev Heart)
\nis an incredible lucid dreamer. She served as Stephen LaBerge’s
\nmain lucid dream research subject in the early years of his
\nresearch work, and helped provide key insights into lucid
\ndreaming. Interviewed by magazines, national and local television,
\nand other media, Beverly has promoted a greater understanding of
\nlucid dreaming and “lucid living.” The LDE is pleased to provide a
\nmulti-issue interview of this fascinating lucid dreamer.<\/p>\n
ROBERT: Beverly, thanks for doing an interview with the LDE. Since
\nyou play a pivotal part in the development of lucid dreaming, tell
\nus how your interest in dreaming began.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[8,7],"tags":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wedreamnow.info\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/63"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wedreamnow.info\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wedreamnow.info\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wedreamnow.info\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wedreamnow.info\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=63"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/wedreamnow.info\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/63\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":335,"href":"https:\/\/wedreamnow.info\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/63\/revisions\/335"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wedreamnow.info\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=63"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wedreamnow.info\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=63"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wedreamnow.info\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=63"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}